Breakup with Social Media w Johan Versteegh

*Intro Music*

Jenny: Welcome to The Hollastic Life podcast! Hi, I’m Jenny.

Jai: I’m Jai.

Jenny: So glad you’re here. And today is a very, very special day. Like every day is special. Let me just say that, but today is extra special because we have one of the coolest…cats? Coolest people. I don’t know if you want to be called a cat, but I was called peas and carrots apparently. So the coolest cat…anyways. So today we’re going to talk about some really cool shit, right? We’re going to talk about like burnout and we’re going to talk about phones and tech…

Jai:… go back. So why our guest today is so cool. Like, it was interesting. He found us from the podcast and like he reached out and he was like, yo, I think this would be a good idea for show and me, honestly, I’m skeptical. And I was like, okay, does he want us to sell something? Like, what’s good. What’s going on? Because usually when people reach out, you know, it’s kinda weird, but you know, Intuition gut was like, go with it and see what happens. So this individual, which we will introduce shortly, we talked and what should have been like an hour conversation turned into almost wait, three hours, which goes to show we vibed and he’s definitely a good friend. So whenever we travel, we’re definitely going to go visit. And whenever he comes to Florida, he definitely has to hang out and what we’re doing, what he’s doing, they’re different, but they sync up. It’s crazy how similar what we’re doing is, but in different areas and being delivered in a different vehicle, in a different form.

Jenny: All the way from the other side of the world, come here to right right now. But honestly it could be your next door neighbor. Our guest is Johan Versteegh. He said that was music to his years.I think I killed it, but let me tell you a couple of things. So he is a phone and social media addiction expert. And the thing is, is he focuses on helping people to be able to become a better version of themselves by using screens, mindfully and helping you understand the detrimental effects that screens can have on us.

And especially since March, I can only imagine how screen uses as like gone through the roof and like, In these months of us in the pandemics. So that further ado let’s welcome. Johan to the show.

Johan: Thank you, Jenny and Jai for having me. I appreciate it. Thanks. Thank you. I love the introduction. Yeah.

Jenny: So tell us a little bit about yourself, something fun, something exciting. And then of course, you know, wrap in a little bit about what you do.

Johan: Yeah. Well, something exciting. It’s hard to be excited. There’s so many things we can do still. We can even see this pandemic as an opportunity. So I think it’s possible to lead an exciting life, doing exciting things.

So even if those activities are indoors, So I’m not actually into board gaming. Oh, wow. Board gaming by myself. I solo games. I’ve never done it before, but I thought, you know, like who plays board games by themselves, but it’s like, you do gaming by yourself. And then I thought, yeah, they’re right. Why can’t I play board games for myself?

So doing that sometimes and I’m enjoying I’m enjoying it. Yeah.

Jenny: So the social media addiction expert that we have on here today is that he’s playing games by himself. In person with board games. Like not even on the phone. Like I play a lot of games with myself on the phone. Right. Like I think that right there is like an aha moment.

Like talk a little bit about that. Cause I didn’t even know there were single person board games besides solitaire, which is like, I was like, I’m going to need to hear some single board games. What are some of those? How do you do it? Because the phone is so easy to pop into that game on your phone. And I know it’s not social media, but still your phone is still screen time.

Johan: No, it’s true, but these board games now, so it’s crazy. Yeah. So the thing is I will do something that’s not extra screens and board games is the perfect activity. That’s why it’s actually the number one activity that I recommend when it comes to. Finding something that pulls you away from your phone and board gaming, is it because when you immerse yourself in a board game, you just forget about your phone.

You don’t even know how to spell smartphone. You don’t even know about Facebook, Facebook, social media, phone with the digital world. There’s so much in that experience and it doesn’t need to be an experience that you experienced by yourself, but it could be with friends and family members. And that’s why it’s so beautiful.

And yes, I thought, well, since when does a board game, but yeah, in the beginning it was, it was so weird when I was playing against this AI that even this computerized enemy, right. That you play when you play PlayStation or Xbox is so well-made. You’re on this mission and you’re doing it by yourself. And then it’s come from that. When you finish the game after two hours… yesterday, I played the game that lasted two hours. Yeah, I was done. I was like, wow. And a beautiful thing is I completely forgot about my phone. And I know, I don’t think about tags or whatever, and it’s an activity that doesn’t involve screens. I think that’s hard, you know, to find an activity that is not connected to screens. There are board games that use tablets though that have apps, but not many of them. But the majority of board games, it’s all about moving around, thinking critically and you have to move, you have to focus. And it’s just, there’s so many upsides to gaming, like relating to cognition, communication.

You have to make critical decisions. You don’t have much time. You have to collaborate because they’re co-op games never heard of that before. Here’s already like co op games. So you’re both on the same team. Playing against this invisible AI. And I thought that’s it, but no, there’s like a lot of co-op games.

It’s yeah, it’s true. It’s a world that has not been explored by many apparently. And I noticed a lot of people that think, Whoa, board games, well clue there’s Clue. There is a Monopoly, there’s Yahtzee, Diego, Battleship. These classic board games, but there’s so much more to it.

Jenny: So I’m on the edge of my seat. So what are these and where the heck do you find them? What are some of the names or?

Johan: Yeah, there is a website. Do you know IMDB.com. So there’s a website. That’s the equivalent of IMBD, but for board games, it’s called boardgamegeek.com. So every single board game was on the website. I know, of course there’s this top thousand, top hundreds, best family, best war games, best horror games.

That’s all I did. Yeah. I did a lot of research and I just became almost addicted to this whole new hobby and I can call myself a modern board gamer because apparently it’s cool to call yourself board gamer. Oh, I love that. Definitely. Jenny: That’s fantastic because you know, it’s interesting that you talk about that because early on in the pandemic, when we were at home and there was a lot more uncertainty going on, I mean, there’s still uncertainty, but there’s always going to be uncertainty in the world.

But early on, right. When it was like, Whoa, what is going on? We actually were like, what are we going to do? So we went and bought board games, but we bought, I guess the old school board games, we weren’t modern board gamers. We bought. Clue. We’ve got the college version of Guess Who and that it just those two.

And then we played those a couple of times or whatever, and it was cool, but it was nice. Yeah, it was good. Right. It’s nice. But honestly, like, I don’t know. And what maybe what you were talking about with like the more strategy and like more thinking like college version of Guess Who. Like it’s very subjective.

Cause you’re like, Oh, you know, there’s like questions that prompt. It’s not like the kids version where it’s like, does your character have purple eyes? You know? And then you put them all down. It’s like, does your character get into trouble in high school. Was your character doing drugs? I mean, it’s completely subjective and you have to look at these people and go, I don’t know, that person looks like they got in trouble.

If you want to like put them down or not like who your…

Jai:…your opponent like might see the same person and be like, Oh, that’s a goody two shoes. They would never get in trouble. So it was like, Oh, is this your personal life? I was like, I put that person down four moves ago. Totally different. Totally different.

But you enjoyed it was good. It was definitely cool. It was definitely cool. I like the idea of, because. Sometimes all, you know, is that traditional stuff. And you don’t know about this awesome website that tells you all these freaking board games, like, especially for the people who feel the need to stay home.

Sometimes you get stir crazy with things you could do. It’s like, okay, I rearranged my house. 999,432 times. Like, what else can I do now? But there’s like these things besides watching TV, besides seeing who triggers you on social media right now, These games, these mindless games on your tablets. There’s so much other stuff out there.

And I definitely want to get into the screen addiction thing. Cause when we talked like last month, it’s kinda like mind blowing in. Like why you started it to like the story. I don’t know if you want to share it. You can totally share another story if you want, but like why this particular situation happened and it made you be like, Oh, I need to step back.

This is becoming, I want to say dangerous, but unhealthy in a sense.

Johan: Yeah, because I disconnected myself a long time ago, like back in 2014. So, but that was different because I actually had the very first smartphone that has the very first Android version. So it wasn’t novelty, the smartphone and Android. And it was two years after the iPhone came out with the very first smartphone. So you were the coolest kid on the block. I have to show off. I have to show up everywhere. I was in college, so I was using it a lot and I wasn’t really on Facebook. Cause that’s really started in Europe around 2007. I started becoming very popular.

And so I started to use Facebook for the first time in 2007. And then I started to use it a lot because it was a novelty and suddenly we didn’t need to text each other anymore or sending emails. Now we could just communicate with this platform called Facebook and then most of us were just posting messages about ourselves, private messages, just on our wall for everyone to see. And it was obvious that we didn’t really know how to use this platform. Even I sometimes if I remember the posts that I posted back in 2007, and I’m like, I cringe, no secrecy, no mystery too open, too open, too honest. And so that was not good.

But. I thought it’s okay. No, it’s fine. It’s Facebook. It’s a novelty. It’s new. We, I see that more popular. We have to use it. And then I started to date and then I have a Brazilian girlfriend. And she was mental. Like she was on Facebook, 24, seven. She was like posting like six, seven posts a day. And then when we were a couple, the majority of the posts, me, us, and of course, so once something in return, she had expectations of like, yeah, you’re on, you know, you better post about us as well because it’s, you know, our friends need to know we are happy, right. They need to know we are in love. And it was fine and I enjoy it. I was like, yeah. Okay. Here’s a Celine Dion song. Here’s a Barry white song. Here’s a poem that I Googled. Here’s this beautiful photo. And ah, yeah. And then all the comments under the likes didn’t exist back then. I think that’s phase, it started to become popular as well, but people commented a lot, then that’s what it was like. Yeah. Yeah. But I felt that I was losing myself because I was just thinking, is this normal? Like, why is this Mark Zuckerberg’s invention? Why do we need to communicate to this platform? Because then I started to say, you know what, let’s just use Skype, have this one to one interaction. No, no, no, no, no Skype. I mean, you know, posts, we can communicate on Facebook.

There is a private message option as well there, and I, okay. Okay. And then what happened was one day we walked on the beach and then she was drawing this beautiful heart on the sand with Johan loves Fernanda, which was her name. And then she asked me, Johan, could you please kneel in front of the hearts so I can take a photo?

I said, yeah, of course. So she took a photo and then a few hours later, the photo was online, but the text said, look, what Johan made me, Johan loves me so much. I saw that. That was like, okay, so you’re lying about this. I wasn’t even thinking about drawing. That’s hard for you to actually admit.

So then I realized, wow, we really think this Facebook’s serious. And what bothers me is why I have this model that is “I don’t want to die stupid.” That’s my quote, that’s my motto. And I like to get out of my comfort zone, that uncomfortable zone. I like it. And I always envisioned this future Johan like a long time ago.

And I know that I wanted to produce something to make something of myself. And instead of just consuming all the time I needed to produce. But just because I was online so much and it was posting so much just satisfying her, then I thought to myself, no, this is not right. And then when that moment happens, where she posted that photo while saying that I did it…. right?

Yeah. So then I told her, look, I am going to work on a website… now I want to produce, I don’t have that much time now to be online. And then she didn’t really accept that. So we were fighting more and more, and then we broke up as far as no one knew for the first few months. Later on people were like Johan, I don’t see these photos and all that…what’s happened? We broke up a long time ago. Then, they’re like : “Oh, really?”, I’m like, Yeah. In your relationship and that fill us in on the Facebook, Only post about the good things. No one is doing that. Right. So that made me decide, okay, now enough is enough. I don’t accept this. And then I started to produce more and more. And then it was just a logical to disconnect from Facebook. The nice way from my personal profile for three years, just to work on that website and I, his book, but the fan page. So it’s his purposes. That’s great. But I mean, I never say stay away from Facebook like mine, so you can still use social media.

Jai: It’s interesting because I took a, um, Facebook sabbatical hiatus with a break detox, whatever you want to call it a few months ago, where I noticed like, during the height of what was going on with a pandemic with the civil unrest in the world, with people sharing their opinions behind the keyboard. I would read some of these things and get sugar, you know, and I’d be like, I can’t do this. I can’t do this because this is making or breaking my day. So I need to. Not beyond Facebook right now, as in, not delete my account, but it does not need to be easily accessible on my phone.

So there was a point where I deleted the app from the phone for about two hours. I have two months maybe. And like if I, I wanted to post something, I would have to go through like the mobile browser, which was a pain in the ass for me. So I just could be like, eh, I just won’t post on Facebook and then it was like, okay, you still have to use it for business.

So I ended up putting it back on the phone, but I noticed by the need. Cause I think that’s what it is for a lot of people. People feel it’s a need, like, wasn’t there as strong as it was before I wasn’t consumed by. Oh, did someone comment on this or. Has anybody replied yet and was just like, okay, go on and check any notifications. No, all this shit is whack. All right, move on. I’m done with Facebook. So it it’s just like, it’s interesting the access and what we’re looking for on the social media platforms. Cause it’s, you know, Facebook, Instagram, Linked all of them, all of them, this attachment, this magnetism that the screen has on us…And it’s like finding a way to detach. I’m not saying get rid of it. Totally because yes, we live in a digital technological world, so there’s a time and place for that, but not to be like 24. I mean, there was a time where I would pick up the phone, check Facebook, put the phone down only to pick back up the phone to check Facebook, like two seconds later.

Jenny: So Johan, how do you like with what Jai talked about and everything you teach on, how do you help people? Like, do you have a certain process or do you have a formula on how you help people detach from some of this obsession? I don’t know. Right. I feel like sometimes it turns into that.

Johan: Yeah. People call it compulsive use problematic use and addiction, but you know what matters is if it’s problems for you then yeah. You want to get rid of, you need to solve it. Well, I always introduced the six step formula. So step one is self awareness. So I tell people, you want to become aware of how much you use your screen.

So there are apps that you can use that will tell you how much you use your phone and how much you use your apps. Also, you want to become mindful about the way you feel and the cost that you’re having the needs, who wants the sale when you go for your phone or when you’re using your phone. And they also want to understand, how exactly it is having a negative impact that’s phone use that access of social media and phone use because there’s this voice that will tell you, look, everyone is doing it, everyone’s using their phones. So I don’t even try to reduce it because everyone is doing it. It’s like smoking in the 50’s. Right? Right. Everybody was doing it. A lot of people probably thought, well, if this can’t be so good for our health.

Jai: Which was funny. You said that we were walking a dog yesterday and this guy stops us. He’s like, yo, do you have a cigarette? And I’m like, nah, we don’t smoke. And he’s like “Oh, I don’t blame you”. And I’m like… but you’re asking for cigarettes? One of the weirdest thing, it was like one of the weirdest thing.

Johan: Like, you know, often we know better, but we don’t do right. Yeah. So you see, that’s why people, that’s why I tell them, write down how it’s impacting your life, your relationships, your future, your career, your studies, and then imagine a life where you are in control of your phone, how does that look? Like?

How is your phone now being used by your future self? How do you use social media in the future? So envision how your relationships look like, how you do want for your life to look like and your future and your career and study. So you have to understand where you are now, your current position, and then understand where you want to go.

And use that as motivation. And that’s why it’s important. So kind of start to become aware of why before your phone so much, what is triggering you? What are you thinking? What are you feeling and how many hours you spent on social media and your phone, because then you can also see if you’re improving.

So that’s that one self awareness and then step two is insight. Insight is all about understanding the natural mental effects of excessive phone use of social media use and why we use social media so much. And a lot of research that has to be conducted. Yeah. I mean, we don’t know the longterm effects.

Smartphones only exist since 2007 we’re in 2020. So we don’t know anything yet. We have no idea what the long term effects will be, but we do already notice a few facts happening. We already know that there are detrimental effects. For example, there’s the digital dementia effects, Google door to Google effect as it’s called.

So we outsource our brain. So we like to outsource our brain to technology because now it’s easy to find something, you know, we can ask someone or we can Google. We don’t really try to figure things out. We don’t really try to be creative, to contemplate, to reflect because we always have our phone now that we can use to find answers.

So it’s like if I use a robot arm to replace my left arm, I will be very strong. And I will say technology is terrific. Yes. But it’s going to be weaker. Because I’m not trying to be left arm. So just why you want to train your brain. You have to be careful that you’re not just going to use your phone so much, just because you want to know something or you need to calculate or a member.

You don’t know how to calculate anymore. We don’t even remember numbers anymore. So true is because we just also presents. And also we become better at being distracted. We are constantly all over the place and our brains are fantastic, but. It doesn’t really tell you, Hey, you know what, maybe that’s not a good idea to take care of things that we can see, like our skin, our hair, but we often forget about the brain and we should really take care of that because when we do something a lot, our brain will be like, you know, once you take, that’s fine, I won’t make you get better neurons, fire together, wire together.

The brain is wired to ensure that it’s going to get easier. Things are doing. If you’re complaining a lot, you’re going to get better if you’re reading a lot. So you’re going to get better at that. So he wants to be mindful that you’re not going to train yourself to distract yourself so easily that you’re all over the place, because then it’s going to be hard to focus.

Point is already hard focus. When you read blogs, can you really read the blood from A to Z? There’s so many call to actions. There are images, flashy images. There are links to other articles. There are other tabs open in your browser. It’s hard to just focus. It’s very different than a book from sample. I read a book, maybe a dog barking outside is that distraction, but you know, virtual world is hard to focus on just that one thing.

So insights is all about understanding those effects. Like does it become more lonely, more depressed also why we use social media so much, like social media is creating this world that you think is the world, everyone, but it’s not, it’s very sophisticated world created for you. Based on your behavioral line based on your clicks.

That’s why Facebook and all, they know you better than your spouse know you because your desires, you know, your interests, they’re reflected by your behavior, by the way you play, by the way you see things, they don’t even tell you, everything… this is dangerous. So that’s why you use Facebook more, somehow they know exactly what to show you.

Cause they want to monetize your eyeballs, right? You’re in a product. You’re not the customer, you’re the product. They’re like, you know, it’s free. That’s what they make you believe it’s free. But you pay with your time and your data. I mean, we get data, most important thing as well, according to them, because that’s what they sell.

They sell that to the customer, which are to advertise. So that’s step two, like insight. Another way of motivating to detach a bit, to understand what’s going on. Again, you don’t want to die stupid, which connects to my model. And then step three is digital citizenship. So step three is all about, we complain about their smartphones.

Do we want to replace them with dumb phones? We want to replace them with flip phones or future phones? Probably not. We still want to use our smartphones because in secret we do love our smartphones, but doesn’t get into so much with it. Right? So digital citizenship is all about understanding your device, know how to use it.

Know the features, transform it into an ally. You don’t make it treats you like it’s a jealous boyfriend or girlfriend. There are ways to train the phones, leave you alone when necessary. So understand those options, the privacy settings, the security settings. So do not disturb the dark mode. It’s all about all these features and also social media.

If you use those platforms, understand the options. You can unfollow people. There are privacy settings, security settings, they’re close friends. And as you can create lists where you post only for specific people, those platforms, and also digital citizenship is all about behavior in a proper way. Online, you leave digital footprint behind.

So you want to become mindful about how you use the answers with your posts? Would you say it cause the internet remembers, so be aware of your internet. How do you behave online? Be careful with what you share. If you share photos, you can use the photo and search it in Google image so they can find out where the photo was taken. Don’t share passwords. I use the same password. Be mindful about deep fakes. Fake news understands how to read the route, the contents. I’m going to say tech savvy people. Oh, why do I need to be, just be mindful about how you use the internet? We learn about the device that you use it.

Jenny: When you talked about, you know, being mindful of what it is that you say and how it leaves that digital footprint.

I think that you could probably do a whole episode or a whole training class, especially right now, because so many people are, I think, more so sharing their opinions and their thoughts. Very unedited because it, we are in a very different time right now. And the search for community or in a search for that, like.. concrete that certainty, which we really never have certainty, but that certainty that everybody’s looking for, it’s almost like it is ramped up. People sharing stuff that they don’t normally share in a public forum.

Jai: It’s kind of like, if there’s no filter right now, like no filter. And it’s like, yo, this is my opinion, deal with it.

But it’s like, the crazy thing is like, you’re going for a job and these people have, these companies have departments whose job is to search you out on the internet and let’s see what you said. To find your profile and be like, Oh, well this person supports X, Y, Z, or they said, and your defense. Yes. It was your opinion.

Yes, it was your own profile, but still, you know, that cyber etiquette. Yeah. Yeah.

Johan: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And yeah. And people not really aware of that, especially when you’re young, you don’t really care cause you want to belong. Right. We don’t really think about the future when we’re young. We think we live 500 years, but yet they do do a lot of research.

And so, and it’s easier now to find information about you because we’re so much aligned. There’s so much data.

Yeah, definitely very important digital citizenship. So exactly like you said, there’s a lot to say about that topic and that’s why it has its own step. That’s more about learning and becoming aware and then step four is that digital habit. So now you’re going to implement the boundaries. So now it’s about, okay, I know the dangers, I know all the options that exist on social media or my phone. How are you going to set boundaries for yourself? How many hours do you want to use your phone? Like are you going to use, do not disturb modes? Are you going to disable the notifications I going to use grayscale or not? Or do you prefer strategies like a two hour, no tech or no tech Tuesday?

I always say, don’t go for like digital detox, right? It’s like, someone’s going to say I am going to go the gym for five or four times. I never went, probably not. Don’t do it to yourself.

Jenny: There are so many similarities in everything you’re saying that has to do with like tech and digital media. That’s like the same thing with food and gym and working out and being healthy.

Jai: I would say like, yes, I agree. Like, um, seven week detox, like off the digital detox, excuse me, seven days, seven days? One week digital detox off the bat is super dangerous. Right. And like, at least for me, whenever I like remove Facebook from my phone, my finger goes to the spot that it was on my phone.

Jenny: So many times in a day, I’m like, Oh, Facebook, it’s not there. Oh, Facebook, it’s not, it takes two days to stop doing the like ghost finger. Huh? Nope. Still don’t have it, but not anymore.

Johan: Right. That’s the two days it right. That’s a two day. It goes down. Yeah. I mean, you still have that urge. I did. I would say I’m probably a little more addicted. Oh, sorry. I just poked Jai really hard, a little more addicted than Jai when it comes to stuff, so, okay. So go ahead, go back into the boundaries.

That way we can, you know, the analytical people listening are like, shit, come on. What’s five and six.

Johan: Yeah. So step four is also a big one because yeah. That you can’t create like the phones zone. Well, you don’t use your phone in specific areas, become an area where you don’t use your phone, but also don’t forget to set up a lounge.

I want to say that as well, because a lot of people, when they enter a no phone zone and I go, okay, well, where am I going to leave my phone? So if there’s no dedicated space for your phones, now you always have to make that conscious decision, like, okay. And if she has to make a decision and sometimes you’re like, you know what?

I just need that from my pocket. And just have that, have your phone on your phone lounge. You know, when you relax, make your phone relax as well, you deserve some rest.

Jai: Your phone deserves some rest. Hey, can I work 24/7? No!

Jenny: Meanwhile, Jai’s going to be pulling up on Amazon, some kind of a phone lounge.He’s going to be like, we’re going to buy it.

Jai: I’ve actually not been on Amazon.

Jenny: No, but I’m just saying like, you’re going to forever. You go to look, Jai. Immediately try to find a phone lounge that we can put somewhere. It’s going to be cute. It’s going to be hanging outside our yeah. Yeah…

Jai: Oh… that was the point, I thought you were saying I was addicted to Amazon.
Jenny: No, no, no. I’m talking about any look we’ve been on, we’ve been on a budget, which I’m not anymore. Cause we’ve been on a budget. So we, Jai had a real in is like online shopping, which is not that crazy, but it’s still, you know, there is a little bit of an addiction to like, Oh, no, there was an addiction packages arriving at this house. So anytime there’s an opportunity to get something new, like we had some bowls that weren’t working and he was like, I got some in my cart, we’re buying them. So that’s why I was like, he’s hearing this phone lounge and he’s going, Oh my God. Yes.

Johan: That’s a good judge of that. That’s actually pretty good. That’s a good gadget. It’s for a good cause.

Jai: Yeah, all my purchases are for good causes.

Jenny: All I gotta say right here, Johan, what you don’t know is for some reason.

Jai always has these things he wants to buy and I’m like, you know, the freaking, like, hammer that comes down and everything. Almost everybody. And now you’re added to that group. Always is like, all my coworkers did that when he wanted a little fancy expensive watch and every single one of them was like “let him have it”, all of you team Jai… now Johan is on team Jai for these buying habits.

Johan: No, you don’t…put it in a drawer somewhere like you don’t need any gadgets, just put it up underneath the bed, throw it on the couch before you walk in this room, behind you. Exactly, exactly.

Jenny: Lounges and no phones on us. I like that. I really liked that. I think that’s a good idea. Analyticals are waiting. Jai: Let them wait.

Johan: What I like to do is triggers… triggers. Triggered and certainly triggered, like, because of the thoughts that you feel sad, like, you know what, let me go for a phone or external trigger. Like you’re watching a movie, then you see a character taking his phone and then you want to go for your phone as well.

The notification like an external trigger, all these triggers, internal or external to make you go for your phone. So then I have a counter-trigger. I will pay for it and it says, go away. Like, don’t touch me. Or you can do better than that. For example, an ugly phone case, you know, like an eccentric phone case. Every time you see it. You’re like, why, why do I know why? Because I have to be mindful. I have to just understand that I’m going for my phone. And that’s what you want. It’s fine if you go for your phone, but if you made that decision consciously beautiful, perfect. And that’s why you want to have these small triggers that make you think, okay, you know what? I’m not going for my phone.

Or, you know, once I woke up like moving apps to a fifth screen, people say about third and fourth and don’t move it to the fifth, to the sixth screen…

Jai: You got to work to get there.
Jenny: Yeah but you can pull down when you search. And there it is. Hey, Siri, open this. Siri’s trying to open something…

Jai: We’re talking about these tech savvy people. What about everybody else?

Jenny: I don’t know that. Both. Both. Right. Cause I mean, when you say fifth or sixth screen and I’ve got apps all over, but I don’t look for them. I just. Pull down and type in the first couple of letters. Cause I’m not going to look for it.

Johan: She uses the search. Okay. Well, it’s possible also to remove the, the recommended apps in the search.

Jenny: Oh, like the Siri suggestions. Cause even if I’m looking for Kajabi, I’m still going to like type it in. Yeah. You want to type it in? Yeah, actually don’t use the Siri suggestions. If I want an app, I’m direct, like I’ve outsourced my brain to my phone to look for things.

Jai: There is something though. Cause I remember when I had to reset my phone and I tried to search things in apps wouldn’t pop up. I would like type in like Google and like nothing. So I’m pretty sure there is something in there that will make it more challenging for you to access those apps.

Jenny: That just sounds annoying. Cause then you can’t find what you want.

Jai: That’s the point, the point is not to make it annoying, but to make it a little bit more challenging for you to be addicted to the screen. Because if you know where the app is, like you said, the fifth or sixth screen, you know where this app is and you need to get to the app, you’re going to scroll five or six screens to get to that app. But if you’re just doing it, it’s like, Oh, I want to get on Facebook to get on Facebook. So I’m going to use the search bar and you’re no longer able to use the search bar and you have to scroll. You might mindfully say, well, I really don’t need to get on Facebook that bad. It’s not worth me scrolling five or six.

Jenny: Got it. So it’s that conscious effort that if you do change that, as far as the boundaries and habits, then the ones that are important for business or that you really need access to, you’re going to put in a place, you know where they’re at? Yes. So you can be efficient and then the rest of the like games and wasting. Yes, I get it now. I was initially resistant cause I was like, what the, yeah, but it might not work for you maybe, maybe. Yeah. Because as long as the Siri’s suggestions is disabled and it’s a day screen.

Johan: Yeah. So all these small actions, it’s just, we’ll give you a few seconds to think about it. So I really show you what’s that Facebook that’s a strategy. If people don’t want to remove their apps, which is fine, you can also offload apps. That’s like a test because when you offload an app, the app, it’s still visible, but it’s not installed.Just a file image next to the name. So if you upload an app, you have no more space on your phone. But just by tapping at once, it’s going to reinstall, but it’s a nice test to see how long can you leave that app there without installing it again without, yeah.

Jai: If you were in a case where I was, where your phone had no storage, it would just automatically offload.

And so it was interesting to see like the ones that were offloaded that I haven’t touched in a while. It’s like, why are these even on the phone anymore? Yeah, but you probably won’t see that unless your phone is like “I need more memory”.

Johan: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Or what about, uh, plugins? There is a Facebook login, but this is where laptop, where you don’t see the wall, where you don’t see your newsfeed anymore, or there’s also no distraction where you don’t see your home page anymore. Because honestly, for me, If there’s a problem still somewhere with YouTube.

Like it’s not that I like to watch people bathing in Nutella or, you know…

Jenny: Is that what they show over in Europe?

Johan: Maybe! No, I love educational videos. I like motivational stuff just to purify my mind when I hear or seen a lot of nonsense, but yeah, sometimes I watch too much. But then with that plugin, you don’t see recommended videos. You don’t see the home base because the home page is full of videos.

Jai: YouTube will recommend everything. You have searched, even if you were just searching something like how do I, I don’t know, something stupid, like clean off my oven. You’re going to start seeing videos about cleaning off your oven. And you’re like, I don’t even, Oh, that one looks interesting.

Jenny: That doesn’t get me. I’m clear on YouTube. I go direct to what I want and I don’t get distracted by the other side. It just so happens Facebook and the other stuff. Yeah.

Jai: I’m with you. I’m definitely YouTube. Cause I’m like, I’ll go look for a certain thing and then there’ll be like, Oh wait, look here. And I’m like three hours later. I’m like, yeah, exactly.

Johan: Exactly. Exactly. Imagine how, because these algorithms know. Okay. A large percentage of people when they like this, they like that as well. So, and then yeah, then there, right? Yeah. You want to be very mindful. So like a plugin, like that will work, not going to be distracted. YouTube, doesn’t stand a chance plugins as well. And there are also apps that can help you block apps and track. Like I said earlier, I can see how long you use and it will tell you, Hey, you’re now using X amount of hours, this app or your phone, you should stop. Or our screen time in Apple, you probably know about it, that you can enable downtime and put some app limits. And also Android has a version of it. It’s called Digital Wellbeing. I would never say don’t just use tech to solve this problem. That’s why step five and six, because it’s helpful, but you don’t want to just, just give away that type of control.

That’s kind of solution then, because apps will help me out. No, it’s an internal job. So that’s my mistakes and step five. It’s like, because a lot of people, they focus on pushing the phone away and they still look at the phone. But with step five is embrace life is about finding something that pulls you away from your phone. That makes you say, Hey, turn around, look at me now, your face, you know, you place your energy and focus on that activity. And then you always do that activity, like board games, so much you can do. Curious experiment, not just with yourself, with friends and family. Probably fantastic activities that you can take on, like, you know, finding songs for your playlist together, romantic songs, or learn how to dance. That’s why to dance, dance. So how’s the training there’s so much we can do. So it’s all about finding that activity. Do something…. embrace life outdoors, go forest bathing. If you host nature, you know, use your senses.

Jenny: I love the outdoors, but I have not ever heard forest bathing. What is forest bathing?

Johan: Yeah. Forest bathing is that you like, you’re walking in a forest and you just use all your senses.

So you focused on what you see and what you hear, what you smell. That’s all you use all your senses and you basically immerse yourself in that moment. Use nature to just calm me down to make it serene again. That’s cool. Yeah. So you’re actually very mindful. You don’t do anything. You just walk and be one with nature, be one with the birds and…

Jai: We went, well, I guess that wouldn’t be for us. We don’t have a word for what we did yesterday.

Jenny: We went kayaking. We did like a four or five mile loop through mangroves, through a mangrove tunnels and. Out along the coast here in Florida, we did that yesterday. And that was really nice. We learned that we don’t know how to paddle with a kayak. Cause the guy was like, was like, when we got back, we were like, okay. So what’s the technique. And he’s like, yeah, just barely hit the water with you. And we were, we were like digging it, like. Digging it into the water and he’s like, no, no, just, you know, and we were like, it would have been nice to know how that’s done. We came home, we were like wiped out.

Johan: They didn’t move at all?

Jai: We moved, but they were like people around us who was like zoom.

Jenny: Dude, a five year old went faster than us.

Johan: Yeah. So you see, seems that strength, this technique, right?

Jai: Which goes to show too, like, you don’t need a lot of power to move something through the water. Exactly.

Jenny: I thought I was going to, but had I known at the start had we gone more longer than that…

Jai: She was like gripping the oars and we were like, ah, I showed her the bicep, like this was a workout!

Jenny: My watch, my tech watch was like, are you swimming? Do you want to record this workout? And I was like, not swimming. Yeah. Like, I mean, we were working out.

Johan: That’s a smart watch! It’s good. You did something that scares you, something unique. Well done.

Jai: Definitely. Clearly. Wasn’t too smart. It thought you were swimming.

Jenny: Well, I mean, if I would’ve had that paddling thing on there, then maybe it would have said, are you paddling? I don’t know, easily in the water or not.

Jai: If you shift too far left or right, you tip over…I’m forgetting this is only audio and moving right or left. You could tip over either way.

Jenny: But the one we were in was pretty like balanced, but we did one in Jamaica and Jai made the smallest moves. And so I think it was a smaller one. Yeah. I think it just depends on what it is. I mean, we’re going to do stand up paddle boarding probably next week or the week after here within the next two weeks.

We’re going to, because we’ve got these sea squirts here. So apparently with Hurricane Laura that came through the golf that hit Louisiana, Texas right there, of course, was sending our love to all the people in that area who may have lost their homes or businesses. But as it came through the golf, I guess there’s these like sea creatures that are on like the ocean floor that got swept up to shore and now that they’re out of water, they’re rotting and you know, like anything rotting on the ocean just stinks apparently. So there’s thousands and thousands of these sea squirts. Which are these animals, whatever. I don’t even know if they’re animal, they’re not animals. They’re sea creatures. I don’t know, like whatever anyways, but they’re all on the shore here next to us. And so apparently it stinks. So we’re avoiding the beach here in the very new future.

Johan: So no one is going to the beach?

Jenny: Yeah. Well I’m sure people are going. Yeah. I mean, I’m sure, like, I don’t know. Maybe it’s a good question. I don’t know how they solve it. Like I guess maybe if it’s a public beach people pick them up. And I don’t know, like where do you throw them away in the trash?

I don’t know. I don’t know. That’s a good question. We have not seen it seen pictures and we heard it on the radio and they were making all kinds of jokes, which is why Jai laughed immediately. Cause the jokes they made were very inappropriate about sea squirts. And so they just had this conversation that had like a double meaning.

So that’s pretty funny. And apparently like there’s these caterpillars in Florida that are called pusses and so they had a whole conversation, double meaning about that too. And, um, So they’ve just got this ongoing joke, so when sea squirts popped off. They were like, yo, we talked about these sea squirts in a very inappropriate way, but they kept it like scientific, but there was a very inappropriate..yet, so appropriate undertone to it that made it funny. Wow. Okay.

Johan: So you got away with that? Yeah. Oh boy. Oh boy.

Jenny: It was hilarious. So basically all of that to say we were embracing life. Yeah.

Johan: Exactly. Discovering such things. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jai: That was definitely cool. And I left my phone in the car, so like, I wasn’t even tempted to, but I knew Jen took hers to take pictures and stuff of course. But, um, it was cool. Like not having the phone there to want to, you know, Oh, look, my mom’s calling out here. I can’t talk to you right now. Or to respond to a message just to be there in the moment. Like that was cool. Yeah.

Johan: Good. It’s good. Good. And actually that idea of the watch is also a good one because you’re basically untangling your device. So you get yourself an alarm clock. You don’t use the alarm on your phone, the watch. So you don’t need to check on your phone for the time, get yourself a book.

So you don’t read a book on your phone or music, get it somewhere else, calculate or get it somewhere else. So that’s basically a way to use specific features of your phone and the offline world. So use the watch because not many people nowadays use a watch. We don’t use it just because they have the phone.

Jai: Why do I need a watch? When I have a clock on my phone?

Johan: Exactly. And then when you go for your watch may go for the phone to check time. Then you don’t do it because there’s other things you want to do something late that you forget.

Jai: And a lot of people don’t even know how to tell time with a regular watch right now, anyway, unless it’s digital.

Johan: So exactly. He’s like, yeah, that’s the question, right?

Jai: Yeah. Me and a friend went to New York in ‘05. We went to this place and like this girl asked my friend, she was like, Oh, what time is it? And he like held his wrist out and she was like, What does that say?

Jenny: Pre smartphone? Wow. So it’s always been like that because you said, ‘05 and he said ‘07 is when smartphones, like …

Jai: Really still people had, you know what I’m saying? There was some kind of digital something out there, but you know, I’m saying if that was ‘05.

Jenny: Oh, I’m sure. So Johan whats number six…

Jai:  last but not least….drum roll.

Johan: It’s a big one. It’s a big one. It’s very connected to what you’re doing is embrace thyself. So it is to work on yourself. So take on activities for you. It’s all about you. Me, myself and I. So you work on yourself, basically improve the story you tell yourself about yourself when you’re by yourself.

And a lot of times that’s not what we do that moment for me, just reflect and do that introspection to get to know ourselves better. So, because we don’t do that, we continue to compare online. And you know, when you compare, you compare and despair, you compare your lives to other people’s lives, to their highlight reels… you know? Only highlight reels, the positive things…

I’m lacking this and this. Sort of focuses all the time on the lack. Even I check the newsfeed, I’m like, I would also feel like, sad. You feel sad and you want to feel better. So you use social media to do better. This carefully craft this photo. So we know, well, this is now representing my persona in the best way possible. So that must gain likes or comments. And we want people to comment positively about us. So we outsource our happiness to other people. So we want for them to say good things about us so we can be like, yeah, yeah, you see? True. I do look good. Yeah, it does look good. So yeah, my day was fantastic. But the thing is when you, when you believe the good, you’re going to believe the bad as well. So it don’t say those things then suddenly, Oh yeah. Yeah. I look good. You go, like, I knew it. I’m not good. I’m not smart enough or something is wrong with me. I’m not talented and not skillful and resourceful. So you really want to become your baby. You don’t want to outsource. We be our own biggest critics. We speak to ourselves in a way we would never speak to someone else.

But to ourselves, we sometimes… the way we speak, it’s like we hate ourselves. But other people say good things about us… but we have to learn to become our good side or big spirit because there comes a day. You’re never as good as they say you are. You’re never as bad as they say you are. So you want to learn and understand that.

And that’s why you need that moment with yourself. So you don’t need, you don’t need to use social media to feel good about yourself. And also learn how to become more mindful like Jenny with the urge to check Facebook. Okay. There’s no Facebook there, so you start to become mindful and actually not use it.

You’re programmed to do it because you’re always checking that app. So the more mindful you become, the more you understand. Okay. Yes. I now want to reach for that app. So now you have that space between trigger and response. So that would be the most choice right there. And then you can decide a different activity that she wants to do.

Or you can say, you know what, I don’t want to go for the app or go for the phone. So that’s why I’m raising myself is really to focus on what do you want your desired? So that that’s first step one. And how does that person look like and what needs to be done? And you want to learn how to keep promises to yourself, right?

You said as well, small steps, because you know, if I tell you, “Jai, Jenny, let’s meet next week” and I don’t show up. And then again, I tell, you “know what, let’s meet next week I will show up this time” and then I don’t come again. Then again, I am like “you know what Jenny Jai sorry, but you know what? Next week I will come” You’ll be like, “yeah, well, Johan, I don’t really trust you because you know, you didn’t show up to twice.”

That’s what we do to ourselves. So we say, yeah, yeah, I’m going to do this. And you know, we say like four times we go to the gym, no screens, but then you fail to take the promise to yourself. What happens is you feel bad about yourself? You’d be like, yeah, I can’t really do that. So you have to learn, keep the small promises to yourself, build momentum. That’s why those small steps it’s about developing a habit. It’s more voluntary habits. Not about the intensity of the habits. It’s not about, Oh yeah, you really need to stay away now for a long time. No, develop the habit itself. In an evening, just don’t touch it.

Jenny: That goes really strongly with something that we teach a lot is the 1% better. It’s like, if you can just be 1% better each day. Right then it’s not like you said, like that all or nothing approach. And I love how synchronistic and how similar these are, but of course it’s the different stories and the different how tos and the different words, because it’s two different pieces of our life.

But the core principles that lead this change with the habits, with the small changes, with the, you know, like embracing yourself and embracing like everything. I mean, there’s so many things that you could apply this to, but we need help with the stories and we need help with the ideas and we need help with the model of possibility of how we can live a more fulfilling life with less screen time.

Right. That’s really what it is. It’s like, how can you, we probably are coming up on the hour and not that we have to end in an hour, but I want to. Be mindful cause we could talk for two hours or whatever. So one thing, there was one thing that was ringing in my head this whole time. Right? As we were going through each one of the six steps.

Is with Facebook or Instagram or the social media, specifically community. I think there’s like two things. One, some people go to those outlets for community because that’s where they’re connecting with people. That’s where they’re messaging people. That’s where they’re going to their groups. But also, especially with the pandemic and with people choosing or having to stay at home depending on where they live in the world and what the rules are in their local city or country.

Looking for that community, because it has been removed in the past months from our life. The communities are now all digital, whether it’s on Skype or Zoom or whatever, how do you feel this all plays in? Or how does someone still find that community? Because then it is that, Oh, I want to go to Facebook. I want to go to that place to connect with my people where like, how do you keep that balance or that counterbalance on. That compulsion or that interest or that addiction to go plug into the community, but also it’s so needed right now. Does that make sense?

Johan: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, for sure. Because of this pandemic, the whole question of how much do you use your screens is not the number one question. The question is now for what are you using your screens, how, why.

And what for, the intention now it’s more about like, why do you use the screens so much and how users screen so much? So not anymore about how much. Even I am sometimes using my phone, like for hours, but this, because I’m talking, for example, I use the audio function on WhatsApp, it’s one of those strategies that I don’t type all the time.

I want to just be tapping that option value option in WhatsApp, and then I’m moving up and then I don’t need to touch the screen anymore. I can just be like talking. I can still look around and I can express myself. I can just express myself. And then the person will know, is he joking around? So you have to see sides.

And that’s what I do a lot. So instead of texting, so, but I still use my phone. It will show like, okay, you’re on you use your phone now. Like it’s more minutes. So I use my phone a lot because I have long conversations. And that’s fine. So when people say, yeah, Johan, I’m using my, you know, it’s fine. It’s absolutely fine.

It’s absolutely fine. Just like, how are you using it? Are you satisfied with the way you use it or do you use your phone in such a way that you’re not happy? Like, are you still working too much on that online version? Because now we have this offline version online version and that’s very tiring and exhausting to work on both.

And that unfortunately many of us, we invest more in the online version or you’re now investing more in the online version still instead of the offline version, or is that activity that you were focusing so much on? Is it helping the online version? Is it helping you in the offline world? It’s completely fine to use your screens a lot, but I think, yeah, it’s all about habits and routines still.

Like it’s easy now to be on a phone so much, even when you watch movies together. So even when there’s collective screen time, which is fine, still make sure that that’s an experience that if you, if you do that with someone that you’re immersed in that experience. That’s still leave your phone somewhere else.

Don’t just be with your screens all the time, because they’re everywhere. I use them so much. And you’re watching a movie which involves the screen. No, it’s still even with collective screen-time we’ll leave your phone somewhere else. So still apply those rules. Yeah. Don’t you have your phone next to you.

Put it in the lounge. You go to sleep in a lounge, so still have those rules and forgive yourself when you use it so much. Just gotta be honest now, like how are you using your screens? And that’s what you’re not wanting to figure out. You wants to see, okay, I’m using it five hours. I’ve used this five hours a day.

What have I done in those five hours? Was I scrolling or was it actually engaging? Was this for work purposes, business purposes and branding purposes? Like what. And that’s not what you want to figure out like for what are using screens, but yeah, it’s a fact we all use it.

Jai: I just want to make sure I understand what you’re saying, throw this back.

But like, for example, if you’re out to dinner and you’re like, Ooh, let me get on the phone. And do whatever in that moment ask yourself is what I’m doing right now on the phone. Does it really matter that much for me to be on the phone? Like right now did of being in the moment here at dinner with like whoever or whatever, like, do I really need to look at this email or do I really need to see who’s posted on Facebook?

Or can I just put it in the lounge without buying something cool on Amazon to take with me everywhere to put the phone on. Can I put it in the lounge and be fully present in this moment and when it’s time to go or whatever, take it out of the lounge and catch up on everything or just be just caught up in the moment.

Jenny: Yeah, for sure. Because I can imagine us at PDQ. You were like, can you just put your phone down? Like, what is so important?

Jai: Wasn’t for you? But it was because I was just thinking in the beginning of our relationship. She would be like, well, why are you always on your phone? And I had to ask myself, like, why am I always on my phone? And we would go out for dinner. So this would be mainly for me on is like, okay, we’re sitting here, we’re trying to talk, but I’m playing like Mariokart, you know, scrolling through Facebook or like, And it came to the point. I was like, does this even matter right now? Like why? And if it does, why does it matter?

Like right now, like in this exact moment.

Jenny: One thing you’ve told me, not related to that, but in general, one thing you told me is like, and feel free to comment on this. Johan is like, okay, now the phone you talked about the distractions. Now the phone is the thing that you’re doing. That’s keeping you occupied because whatever you were live in was not occupying enough.

Like he says that sometimes he uses his phone because like, whatever’s going on, isn’t capturing his attention. So I go to the phone conversation, et cetera. And he goes to his phone. Yeah. But I feel like I’ve no, I’m not going to say what I feel like. You’re going to say, you say what you’re going to say, and then I’ll let you know if it’s what I thought.

I don’t want to put words in your mouth, right? Like, yeah.

Johan:  I can relate, you know, sometimes even on the WhatsApp you’re talking and then you’re just going through the app cycle. Right. Then again, reopened Facebook that you closed, like two seconds ago. I can imagine that you want to escape sometimes that’s fine because I think we all escape doesn’t mean we’re escaping from huge suffering.

Maybe we’re just tired or we just want to chill. That’s why it’s, it’s okay to plan those moments of distraction, especially now has been dynamic. I would say, you know, instead of focusing on the habits, And the routines. You also want to say, you know what, Jai and Jenny like, you know what, we’re going to be mindlessly on our phone.

That’s that one hour you have to do whatever you want for Facebook, Instagram scroll, but then. After it has one hour, then you’d be like, okay, now let’s put it away. So we can do A, B and C be like a BS activity. You can just chill, but without the phone. Thanks. Okay. No screens this time, but that’s why you want to use phone, but I think it’s normal to go for your phone.

That’s why sometimes you play video games for half hour. It’s fine. But plan those moments you can’t do is set the timer for 30 minutes. Like does the only distraction. It doesn’t matter what you want to do, what you do. Then when the timer goes off, then you stop it.

Jai: I like that because it’s not restrictive and it’s still giving you freedom, even within that space to do whatever you want and I think that alarm, that timer is like a trigger to it’s being like, okay. And then you can really say, well, I really wasn’t doing anything anyway. So let me get back to like putting the phone down or whatever.

Johan: Exactly. You’re not going to probably not going to fill up the whole hour. Exactly. Be like, okay, well one hour distraction.

What am I going to do? So, yeah, exactly. So some of you are so mindful, I guess, why would I spend so much time on Facebook where you have to be small moments, 10 minutes there then? Yeah. You see? So the whole point is escaping. So you’re not really using the app. It’s just like having something to do. That’s why we all have time, but if you don’t really know what to do with our time, we do what’s easiest.

We just go for our phone. That’s why you really want to be mindful about how you spend your time and plan these things, but then you don’t want to be too strict and that’s why you have those ones. Okay. Now, now we can do whatever you want. That’s fine. That’s really fine.

Jenny: I mean, this is such an important conversation and there’ve been so many, so many nuggets.

So many takeaways, so many ahas, there has been so much, and I know that the Ohana’s from The Hollastic Life show is like, Oh my God, this was such an amazing episode. I’m so excited because there’s so many things that you can take from this. But I know that the people want to know how do they connect with you?

How do they find more about you? How do they take the next step? What is the next step? Johan, someone wants to work with you.

Johan: So you can find me on socialmediabreakup.com. So I have a coaching program and also a Udemy course for iPhone users, which is all about step three, how to use your phone mindfully and how’s it transformed into an ally, but even if your listeners send me an email at Johan on socialmediabreakup.com and I will send them a free link where they can join the course for free and they have access to the entire course.

Jenny: That’s amazing. So spell your name for the people who don’t know.

Johan: J O H A N

Jenny: Perfect. I don’t want people trying to send you a Johan with a Y and then they never get there. They’re freezing. Totally in the title of this episode, but you know, like someone’s like literally got their phone in front of them and they’re typing it in. I wanted to make sure. That’s awesome.

Jai: Yeah, exactly. Cover all your bases.

Jenny: Well, it’s been an absolute pleasure. I mean, we’ve covered everything. I took some notes I did well because I wanted to make sure, cause we covered so much that if I need to call back to it, I took notes for two purposes. In case you were like, Jenny, what was step two. Damn it. I don’t know. So I wanted to be, I wanted it to be a good, a good steward and a good podcast host and make sure I was like following what we were talking about, but also because it’s good information.

Johan: You two don’t need it. You don’t need it. You are mindful.

Jenny: Well, we are, but we still have our moments. Right. Like, and you know, and I’ll tell you some of my favorite moments were: Monetize your eyeballs, digital dementia, no tech Tuesday, purify your mind and no phone zone. Those were my like Johanisms.

Jai: I really liked no tech Tuesday and the no phone zone. Like those definitely jumped out. Yeah, this will not be the last you hear of Johan. I’m pretty sure we’ll find a way to collab more in the future, mainly because he’s so freaking cool.

Jenny: Hell yeah. Maybe Johan can be a special guest in our, uh, next level Lucian program.

Jai: We’ll talk details. We’ll talk details that will work out perfectly. We would definitely. That would be amazing actually. Oh man, I’m getting excited.

Jenny: Till next time. Thanks for being a guest. Thanks for listening to The Hollastic Life show.

*Outro*

What up, what up, what up welcome to The Hollastic Life podcast. We have a damn good time talking about wellness and creating your healthy lifestyle. We are your hosts, Jenny and Jay Holla. And we’re excited to build our listening Ohanna beyond our Facebook live shows as part of the SayWHA Radio®® Network family.

He’s talking to people who really aren’t there because some of these episodes are pulled from those Facebook lives that we do, but the message still resonates. Enjoy the show.