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Burnout is a state of mental or physical exhaustion that can completely remove the love and joy out of your job, friendships, and social interactions. However, burnout isn’t always so easy to spot. In this episode, Jenny and Jai go over the 12 stages of burnout, focusing on how you can identify this in your life and start making changes so you can live a more intentional and present life.

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Jai: Living on the edge. Just kidding. The good news is we don’t have headphones, you couldn’t really hear that near ears good as you heard it in person. So the reason I started with that is because, well, let’s just say I’m Jenny. Jai. He’s Jai this The Holistic Life Podcast. And we talked about living on the edge of burnout today. Yeah. Come on men! Dude, I’m sorry. I’m excited. Like, okay, seriously, I want to know, I wish there was like a live poll that we could do right now. Or like, you know, whatever, some kind of feedback poll, we could be like, do you like when Jenny x before when we start the podcast? Of course they are gonna say yes. Well then why do you freak out? Because it’s freaking weird!

 

Jenny: It’s so not weird.

 

Jai: Is totally weird!

 

Jenny: You live with me.

 

Jai: That’s why it’s weird. It’s not weird. Okay. So the reason we are jumping in a little bit quicker is because we try to give like smaller, quicker episodes to you guys. And I know we could just go on and on. But you know, that’s how shit goes. And we got good music here at Panera. So I just want Focus, focus, focus. Oh the songs over. Good, good, right. So we started today talking about, you know, living on the edge of burnout. Because, at least for me, this is what I feel. I have my own burnout story. But beyond that, what I feel is a lot of the people that we are around every day that we talk to, that we interact with, you know, a lot of the entrepreneurs, professionals, stuff like that. They are aware of the word burnout. Some of them have experienced burnout. Some of them don’t feel that they’re burnout. But a lot of times what we see since this is something that we work with people on we see and we’re like, okay, yeah, you’re living on the edge of burnout. And just felt like we wanted to do an episode talking about this today, because wanted to bring some light and some awareness to this conversation. Because we really don’t want to see you, like have that breakdown. We don’t want to see to where you are so burnout, that you literally something crazy happens like a heart attack, or you get really sick or you just are like, grounded for a moment, because you have to sleep for two weeks or something  Facts! Or even you start to hate the business you created out of love. Right? Or you get depressed or you start just I mean, there’s so many things, all the things, all the things and if we can help you from getting to that place, and help you put in in in better, you know, systems and processes and mindsets and things and tools to be able to support you, you are going to be able to experience life, it’s so much more of a joyful, rich, and like energy filled level, that you won’t even really have to worry about burnout, because you’re going to recognize when the different signs and stuff come up. So I want to just start just laying some groundwork on what burnout is. And there’s an American psychologist by the name of Herbert Freudenberger. And in the 70s, he coined the term burnout. And he specifically said that burnout is a result of extreme stress and having strong ideals and goals. There are lots of different definitions of burnout, and there’s a lot of different angles and resources and things you can look up online. But I felt like the one that in addition to what Freudenberger said, is this idea that when you are sacrificing your well being for another purpose, like your job, or your business, and I felt like that was really fitting for today’s conversation because that’s usually what it is right? When we’re feeling all zenned out and good or whatever. We end up you know, we have these morning routines and we’re meditating and we’re feeling amazing and we’re doing eat exercising and eating well, we’re taking care of ourselves, we’re feeling good. And then what happens is a big project comes I mean a lot of the we work a lot in the wedding industry and a lot of the wedding pros, you know, because when COVID shut down a lot of industries across you know, the country of the US and the globe. I know and you guys know that all the areas in the world are opening up a totally different rates. Some of them have been open for a while and some of them are still going back into close you know being locked down but The thing The reason I brought that up is because when things you know, when we were in quarantine and things were standstill, and you know, like everything, like the world was shut down. What happened is a lot of a lot of these, like gogogo professionals and even like myself was like the first time in our life ever that we had like an empty calendar, or when things shifted, and we had more time to ourselves, we’ve gotten used to this lifestyle of just kind of taking care of ourselves. Hopefully. Right! Yeah, definitely. Although there’s a lot of people, and you may be one of them listening, where you did gain 20, 30, 40 pounds, you know, on average, what was it like 23 pounds or 28 pounds that people gained during the pandemic. I know, we’re still in pandemic, but I’m saying like, over the last year, okay, the thing is, is what what we’re seeing with the wedding professionals, and a lot of people as as things open back up and people are starting to do things is what’s going to happen is those habits that they put in place, are now going to just get thrown to the wayside because they’re gonna have a huge project, they’re gonna have something that comes up. And then what’s going to happen is that A person is going to kick in, because I do this, sometimes I catch myself, I’m like, I got shit to do, and I get up and I start working on that shit. And I will just go for, you know, 10, 12, 14 or whatever, I will go. And I’m like, I don’t need my workout and don’t even meditation, you know, and you start throwing away those things. And we think nothing of it. Because we’re like, Yeah, but we got a big project. Yeah, but we got big goals. Yeah, but we got to, you know, make up for that lost income. Yeah, but we got to get to that next thing in business. Yeah, but I think, right, all these things that are exciting that drives us because we’d like the achievement. But really, if one of the definitions of burnout and bringing it back is that it’s like I said, it’s multifaceted. But when you start sacrificing your well being for another purpose, such as your job or business, so there’s a part of the groundwork, the other groundwork that I wanted to lay before Jai and I start talking was that same American psychologist Freudenberger, he put together the 12 stages of burnout. So what I want to do is I want to share with you the 12 stages, but we’re really going to talk about a couple, okay, in through here, we’re going to touch on all of them, but I want to walk you through. So stage one is a need to prove yourself. Stage Two, working harder. And it’s really like feeling the need to work more to reach your goals. Stage Three, neglecting your needs. So disrupting your sleep, your eating, like what we just talked about, right? Not interacting on a social level, you’re taking out your friends, stage four, displacement of conflicts. So you’re dismissing problems that are present, you’re starting to get anxious, stage five revision of values, so your values change. So work becomes the most important thing that you focus on, stage six, denial of new problems. So you begin to develop an intolerance to mounting problems. Stage seven, withdraw, you turn away from social life, and you look for ways to relieve stress. So alcohol, eating some kind of a vice, stage eight, odd behavior changes, it becomes clear to people who are in your circle, friends, family, etc, that you have changed, or you’ve begun to change. Stage nine, depersonalization. It’s when your own and other people’s needs become irrelevant. Stage 10 is it inner emptiness, so you feel empty inside and you’re looking for ways to compensate? stage 11 depression, so you feel exhausted, you feel lost, you have no energy and stage 12 burnout syndrome, it’s total mental and physical energy depletion, and you need medical attention. And so as I went through those 12, I bet that you’re listening, and you’re like, wow, I have some of those. And my personal opinion on this based on having experienced this is, yes, you know, you kind of go through the 12 stages. But the thing is, is you may have already been living on the edge of burnout, so much of your life or so much of your career, so much of your entrepreneurial life, that you literally have maybe adopted some of these other things that are still present. So while you’ve maybe kind of like gone up to a stage, you know, 7,8,9, withdraw changes behavior and depersonalizing, you’ve may be hit those things, and then you know, you took your vacation and you unplug, and you kind of started back in the beginning, but sometimes some of those things are still present, because you never addressed them, because I can’t even think back where some of these things were and could potentially still be present, which is I would think what would also contribute to you escalating through these stages at a quicker pace, because some if some of these things are still present like for example, revision of values at stage five values are changed. So work becomes the most important thing you focus on. So that may be the case for you. You may focus on work solely and completely. But you may not be fully at a stage five, because maybe some of the other things, but I think that if you have some of the other stages need to be really aware of that and really mindful. Because you don’t want to make it stage? 12?  Yeah, I agree. Okay. I was waiting because I didn’t know if Jai wanted to jump in. Because the thing is, is when we talk about burnout, I have experienced this, Jai? I can’t relate to right now. I mean, you can because you’ve watched me, but not from yourself, like you understand it. But the thing is, is like, you, literally, were tapping on my shoulder while I was going through this and trying to break me from my trance. And so I mean, here, let me ask you a question. So when I went through my extreme burnout that I had when we were together? No, I mean, like, like, you were with me, like, you’re with me. It’s not like the burnout was before. I’m sure I had other burnouts before. But I feel like I hit like, my peak burnout. And that whole experience maybe like, three years ago? Four years ago? Somewhere in there, you I mean, you were there, you were a part of that process. So as I went through those stages being a spouse, how did you? What was that experience like for you? I guess it’s, it’s, it’s different. Because you want to spend time with your spouse, but your spouse is so focused on work and stuff. And at times, it’s you, you become resentful. Because it’s like, oh, I’m sitting here, I’m working, I’m traveling, I’m doing all these things. And you’re like, hey, stop, whatever. And like, you get snapped at, like, What do you want? What are you doing? Like, I’m working? No, and leave me alone, right? Within, after all, that’s done. And then the other person wants to spend time, I want to spend time on my terms, even though I’m running myself to the ground, when you’re trying to get me relaxed, chill or whatever. No, I don’t want anything to do with you. But when I feel that I have things under control, then I can be available. So there was there was there was some of that, too. But learning? Well, understanding, like what you’re going through is like a learning thing.

 

Jenny: Yeah, I think that the thing, the thing that looking back that I remember is you would always try to get me to like pause and take a breath. And I felt in some of those times that you really like yelling at me. Because the thing is, we go back to that, that definition of extreme stress and having strong ideals and goals, what’s really underneath that what’s really like a part of that is like this idea of culture, praises, having those strong ideals and goals, you know, praise is being able to have that stress and go and you have the you know, you go go go and there’s a level of praise for that, but also to what lies underneath a lot of that is this idea. And this, you know, goes back to childhood is like I’m not good enough. And it’s a perceived pressure. And a lot of times we carry that into ourself.

 

Jai: Isn’t it crazy that society would basically praise you working yourself to death, mainly for their benefit? I mean, what came up for me, and I’m definitely not the expert in this. But I remember when I started looking more into, you know, some of the African American History and looking into some where some of these like ideals came from. And I remember coming across, I think I heard it on a podcast, when I was listening to, and or as an audio book, one of the two, that the corporate mentality, and a lot of the gogogo mentality was rooted back in the slavery times, because the slaves had to pick a certain amount of cotton, or had to do whatever their job was, and it’s like, they had to do more faster, and they had to be able to provide more, or they would get beaten, or they would, you know, have some kind of a consequence. And a lot of times, you know, those slaves would be the labor for a lot of these, you know, rich white man businesses, and they would be doing a lot of the labor that was required, you know, during the Industrial Revolution type of times. And so, you know, you take that, and that’s what made some of these businesses more profitable, because if you just look, you know, bottom line at numbers and profitability, just just in a, in a, you know, very, like, non emotional perspective is that you make $100 dollars. The idea is you want to keep as much of the $100 dollars as possible. And even that I can even question that being the belief or the the thing that’s absolutely necessary, but that’s kind of, you know, what drives businesses in corporate America, how can you cut costs and make more money? But the thing is, I feel like that idea even lives on the edge of burnout, because, you know, okay, well, I’m going to cut costs with employees by paying them less and asking for more, a lot of times in corporate America or even that like idea and that mindset and the belief that if I can hire Suzy or John, at, you know, if the base rate for this is 50 to 70, then I want to hire Suzy or John at the lowest rate possible, but for the absolutely best performer possible. So I want to get that person to agree to the 50, like the lower end, or the 45, even under, because now that puts $20,000 more in the pocket of the business. And then this idea that I need to get the most out of them. I mean, think just think about, like what I was saying that was rooted in, you know, and it’s, it’s, to me, it’s like really disgusting, that that’s what holds present, I mean, you could even we could even kind of go into school, I mean, we could kind of go into all these different directions, talking about the root of it. But I think that that’s the thing, like really just being aware of the ideas that hold true, a lot of times in society and our surroundings, and really looking for models of possibility, outside of what you’ve been exposed to, that show that it’s possible. That’s super important. And, you know, even I’ve talked about this before, and, you know, I think it’d be really cool to find, I don’t know, X amount, 20, 50, 100, I don’t know, like entrepreneurs or business owners, who have done very well, doing it differently than what we just talked about. They’ve done it working less hours, they’ve done it, paying people good wages, they’ve done it, you know, in the way that like defies the way it’s supposed to be. Now, we’re kind of going a little bit left as it relates to corporate, but this is still like in your life, this pressure, this this pressure that you perceive exists, but a lot of times you’re putting the pressure on yourself, right? You’re putting the pressure on yourself, like at even to go back to school, if I don’t get an A, my parents won’t love me. If I don’t get an A or if I don’t get straight A’s. My teachers won’t love me. If I don’t get A’s, and I won’t get a good job. I don’t get A’s, and I won’t get a scholarship. It’s a very pressured field position you put yourself in.

 

Jenny: I mean, I I

 

Jai: I’m not even you people who think that way period.

 

Jenny: I can speak to it.

 

Jai: I know you can.

 

Jenny: You know, cause I mean, I’m thinking like, for me, getting anything less than an A was unacceptable. That’s why the only time I let myself get B’s was in high school, when the B’s counted like a four point A, because I was in weighted classes, I was like, I can get a B here because I’ll still have a quote on quote, perfect GPA.

 

Jai: We don’t talk about school in our house. But you know, going back to the burnout thing, you know, and so many professionals don’t realize that they’re living on the edge of burnout, but it goes back to these deeper things. It goes back to this like pressure, what pressure do you have on yourself to perform? Right? I think it’s and I would love your perspective perspective on this, cause I’m sure even some of the things that I say in my beliefs probably live on the edge of burnout too. You know, I think it’s important to have a level of excellence, but also making sure that you can still have that level of excellence without you know, being at level 5, 6, 7 on this on the stages of burnout. Yeah, I mean, if, if excellence is one thing, but you know, like, excellence at a level 10 I feel is kind of, like the whole perfection thing. So it’s not really excellence, it’s like, it has to be perfect. And nothing’s ever perfect. But like one of one of my things is just always asking, like, what can I learn from this situation, like whatever the situation is. which is, which is mindset work within itself. Because sometimes going into a situation and environment where you’re used to looking feeling a certain way, you know, certain things trigger us, like, Oh! My boss, didn’t say I did a good job when I showed up early, and I was the last one to leave like, what am I doing wrong? And it’s like, okay, looking at the position, from the other person’s point of view, and asking yourself, what am I supposed to learn from this situation? What is the lesson in this? Or why am I triggered? Like, all these questions? And I don’t know if you said in this episode or like one of our previous ones. It’s like asking the right questions. So like asking yourself, what did I do wrong? That’s not the right question to ask, what is to be learned? How can I do better next time? Or did I even do anything wrong to do better next time? Just putting yourself in a position to ask, ask questions instead of automatically going to that reaction, whatever that whatever that reaction is, I feel for a lot of A types, the reaction is, oh, I have to work harder, or I have to do this, I have to show up better.

 

Jenny: You know, what’s interesting is another, another thing that really breaks down the different types of burnout. And this is really, this comes from Farber in 1990, he was a researcher. And he examined the different, he felt like there’s three different subtypes of burnout. And this is really interesting, because I feel like one of them I definitely fully can relate to. But I’d never even realized or consider that there was like different types. So the first type is the under challenge burnout type. So this is someone who’s very under stimulated or unstimulated, the work is repetitive, results in boredom, and the person has become indifferent. So, they’re just doing the same thing. Okay, that’s the style. This next one is the one that I definitely can relate to. And it’s the frenetic burnout type, this person is ambitious, and wants to be successful. And they work increasingly harder and become overwhelmed and tired because of the workload. So think about that, too. I mean, it’s give me more, give me more, I want to be the best, I want to be the best, I want to be the best. Like, that’s the kind of the realm I was in. And so I would take on more, and I would take on more, and I would want to like be more and be better. Once again, going back to that like childhood belief of like, if I don’t get an A I’m not loved. And, of course, I would not admit to that, because I don’t feel like I had that belief. But if I’m really honest, that was probably like an underlying belief that drove why I would, you know, because my parents had an expectation that I need to get good grades. And if I don’t get good grades, you’re gonna be in trouble. And you have to get good grades, so that you can get into college, you have to get good grades, you can get a scholarship, so we don’t have to pay for school, you know, so a lot of that was kind of like there, so that the need to perform existed very strongly for me. And then the third type, which I was also partially, this one, too, is the worn out burnout type. So this is someone who’s under a lot of stress and gives up entirely, so they feel a lack of control and neglected by everything around them. And this is just, you know, like when you talk about the different styles and the different types, I don’t know, to me, it comes back to that awareness. Where are you on that scale of one to 12? You know, where are you like, Are you experiencing those different things like what type of burnout is coming up for you and really just being mindful? But the thing is, is you don’t realize, I mean, a big thing that when I talked to some of my friends, and we’ve talked about this before, right, like, you know, there’s certain words, you may view burnout as a certain way. So I may have a picture of burnout, it means someone who’s frantic, who’s a jerk whose hair is sticking out of their head and fried, like you have this vision of what it is, or what you think it is. And you go, Well, that’s not me. I’m good. I got my shit together. Right? That’s not me. I’m not that crazy person over there. That crazy person, they’re burned out. That’s not me. I know what I’m doing. I’m under control. So a lot of times, we’re not willing to admit that we burned out that we’re burned out or like don’t see ourselves as that. I just talked to a friend of mine, and we were talking about this. And she’s like, I just didn’t think I was burnout. Yes, I know that I had some challenges. Yes, I know that I had some things I needed to work on. But I wouldn’t burn out. Obviously, guys, yeah, I’m the main talker and this one because basically, I just want I just wanna, I just want I’ve said basically a lot here because I feel like it is rather simple. If we’re willing to admit that we fall in some of these categories. And there are some ways that you can help yourself. And we talk about this a lot. Talk about, you know, what the main thing that we do with our clients when it comes to routines, I know we had an episode on routines, so you can go back and listen to that. But like talk about you know, the importance of like the morning routine and the night routine, and like boundaries and stuff. Because I know we’re gonna you know, we’ve gone deeper, we’re gonna talk about these things. But this is one of the ways that you can help put things in place for yourself.

 

Jai: It just, it just, I don’t have a word or phrase but sets yeah, it sets the tone, sets the tone, because think about it, like how many of you get up and the first thing you do like, your cell phone is right there by your bed. You don’t turn it off. You don’t use screen time you don’t use Do Not Disturb. So the first thing you do is get up and you check your notifications, who said what on Facebook, who’s emailed me, who’s called, who’s texting, who liked my picture last night on Instagram. And that sets the tone for that your whole day. So you start your day focusing on other people instead of focusing on yourself.

 

Jenny: When I will even add to that just for like other examples is what sales did I close what what people reached out? I know it’s all that but someone may listen and be like, Oh, I don’t check the Instagram but I’m like to from a business perspective. It’s close to that. Right?

 

Jai: It’s all of that. So that’s why I said you start your day worrying about everybody else and not taking care of yourself. And that involves everything if that if you’re not taking care of yourself.

 

Jenny: Right!

 

Jai: So like setting the mood, setting the tone, grounding yourself finding a way to get active before you start your day, because energy is real. Sometimes it’s not just physical, you being tired or whatever. Physical energy. Yes, we all know that’s real. Emotional energy. Yes, that is also real. Have you ever been around someone who just complains all the time when you leave? There’s like, oh, fucking drain. Emotional energy. Have you ever broken up with somebody? Have you ever found somebody new that you were like, head over heels for all that shit is real. So it but if you start your day, or end your day, with giving something, somebody or something, your energy without renewing yourself is kind of like a battery? Like, if you don’t recharge, it’s going to eventually be drained? At the moment, you don’t want it to be drained and just power off.

 

Jenny: Right? Right. It’s like, you know, you’re, you’re out in the middle of nowhere, you’re trying to get home, and your phone dies. And it goes to GPS, right? And now you’re like, Fuck, you’re somewhere you don’t know. You’re like, what the hell do I do?

 

Jai: Yeah, and it shows up. And that’s a simplified version of saying, you go in for your annual checkup, and your doctor saying shit needs to change, or you won’t be here.

 

Jenny: Right, I mean, like, the very, like, lowest, easiest thing to implement. If you’re like, Oh, yeah, grounding? What am I gonna do? How am I gonna do all that, and we’ve talked about this before in previous podcast episodes, is this idea of the five minute habit. So literally, you could spend the first five minutes of the day when you wake up, doing a meditation, doing yoga, doing your, you know, devotionals doing something to take care of you first, setting your mind up and doing that, whatever it is, whatever it is, that can feel you can try some different things, but five minutes, you know, especially if you’re the type where you’re at and your processes, you’ve literally for years gotten up and gotten to work, like within minutes of waking up, right? You get up and you go work on the computer for an hour and a half and just go right, you know, that would be something because otherwise you’re like, Wait, how am I supposed to do 30 minutes of yoga and grab myself like that sounds like a lot to the just the the easiest thing to do is the five minute, five minute habit. Pick something that you can do every day for five minutes before you give your attention in the rest of the world.

 

Jai: You’ll notice how it doesn’t seem like a lot. It’s simple, but it’s not easy. But you’ll see how how much that makes a difference in your day to day by just like taking that little time for yourself and then it turns into, oh, I want to take more time for myself and how can I optimize when I’m most productive and knock out the most in that time black so I can enjoy everything else.

 

Jenny: So what’s cool about this unfuckable series, which is we forgot to say in the past couple episodes is like the unfuck with unfuckable series like all these things are leading up to how you can create an unfuckable mindset and lifestyle and business and person. And what I love about this and what we’re doing is that next week on next week’s episode, we are talking about Zen lifestyle and some of the different things that you can do to really bring more like peace and calm into your life. So it’ll be a perfect follow up to this episode. So make sure that you tune in for next week’s episode to hear about some of that and I can only venture to say that Jay will be doing a lot more of the talking on that one because maybe you are because this is like you live as in lifestyle. Okay, well I’m gonna I’m gonna like put 25 cents in your bag so that you you bring, you bring that knowledge you bring that wisdom, you bring that Zen to the conversation. Alright guys reach out like we always say at the end, we’d love to hear from you. We already have started to hear from a lot of people so we our inboxes still open for you reach out at on Instagram at the number two underscore the letter J Holloa, h o l l a. We would love to connect and help you out on your journey point you in the direction of whatever resources we can and of course if it makes sense for us to work together we can invite you to do that too. Alright, see you on the next episode. Jai say Holla

 

Jai: Holla! You can subscribe to The Holistic Life podcast from your favorite streaming platform. And don’t forget to check out 2jholla.com to stay in the know as an official 2jh Insider. Mahalo for tuning in. And until next time, that’s our show.

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